now listen

Aug. 10th, 2017 08:17 am
juan_gandhi: (Default)
[personal profile] juan_gandhi
It's about the (now popular) idea that female engineers are worse than male engineers.

At lest at Google.

I got a suspicion that if we narrow down the requirements for engineers to what is a de-facto standard at Google, the guy may be right.

The company (like a bunch of others) needs arrogant soldiers, ready to follow the orders FAST, without much thinking, meanwhile pretending to be the smartest species of the universe that has solutions for any problem (e.g. NLP and AI, right?)

Twain Liu writes every day on LinkedIn that this narrow, european/male/stanford attitude to language processing is just stupid. I join her.

Programmers that don't know math or linguistics abound. They are working hard on building something that replicates their mentality, that's only natural. In Google it's also enforced by the general totalitarian approach where your perceived IQ is inverse proportional to your distance from Larry/Sergey.

If you are a QA, you cannot be allowed to come up with a language for writing web tests. If you are a plain engineer, you are not allowed to use Haskell, or Scala, or Git; you must use Java/C/Python and perforce. Now someone close to the big bosses came up with a pretty dumb language, openly explaining that Google engineers are too dumb to use anything more sophisticated than that.

When Marissa was there, she held an immense power, so that you could not tell it's all about male giving orders, females obeying. Now Marissa is gone, and the culture is settled.

What would be the role of a female engineer there? A normal female will hardly start shouting at a meeting, interrupting other people, pushing her opinion, however stupid, on others, similar stupid participants. Personally I could not figure out how to say a word in a meeting at Google, for two years. Eventually I found a solution; I believe it would work for female engineers too.

But what I want to say, their whole idea of "meritocracy" just means that you have the right to your own opinion if managers are your buddies, otherwise your opinion has no merit. 

How, in such a situation, would a regular female engineer thrive? Some definitely would, but these are not the kind of people I'd like to deal with. Normal people would rather keep low profile.

I actually saw this behavior in the previous company I worked at. A bunch of rather ignorant male engineers were leading the game, while a very competent and knowledgeable female engineer was keeping low profile, knowing that anything she says will be at least ignored (but most probably perceived negatively).

So, in my opinion, we can have varying opinions regarding whether females at work are as aggressive as males; I think they are not, and that's what is perceived by the aggressive ones as their weakness. Does it have a biological nature, lack of aggressiveness? I think it does. It just has nothing to do with professional qualifications.

Date: 2017-08-10 10:20 pm (UTC)
henry_flower: A melancholy wolf (Default)
From: [personal profile] henry_flower
> Now someone close to the big bosses came up with a pretty dumb language

what lang is that?

Date: 2017-08-10 10:24 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] yussouf
go, apparently

professional Monadkah pushers hate Go, that's known & expected

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Date: 2017-08-10 10:20 pm (UTC)
dmytrish: (wildcat)
From: [personal profile] dmytrish
A new turn of events: https://twitter.com/Fired4Truth. Now he's a warrior for truth with clear "alt-" branding.

I had some respect for the memo and some points (especially Google being basically built of macho shit that oppresses very men), now I'm curious if he wrote it himself.

Date: 2017-08-11 09:18 pm (UTC)
garote: (Default)
From: [personal profile] garote
Now all he needs is an AM radio talk show. :D

Date: 2017-08-10 10:22 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] yussouf
how many teams at G. you were in during your tenure?
or, at least close enough to, to know what's happening inside?

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Date: 2017-08-10 10:38 pm (UTC)
sab123: (Default)
From: [personal profile] sab123
> A bunch of rather ignorant male engineers were leading the game, while a very competent and knowledgeable female engineer was keeping low profile, knowing that anything she says will be at least ignored (but most probably perceived negatively).

Don't think that it has anything to do with gender. It only has to do with who is the boss.

Date: 2017-08-10 11:36 pm (UTC)
diejacobsleiter: (Default)
From: [personal profile] diejacobsleiter
Thank you. Very impressive...

Date: 2017-08-11 12:07 am (UTC)
ppk_ptichkin: (Default)
From: [personal profile] ppk_ptichkin
Я знаю, что вы, гм, не очень любите Google. Насколько типичен ваш личный опыт? У меня есть несколько знакомых в Google. Один из них в такой атмосфере просто не выжил бы; ещё по кр. мере двое ушли бы - они ушли от моего предыдущего работодателя по похожим причинам. Был человек, подходящий под ваше описание; но как раз он в Google не процвел.

(Вопрос корыстный)

Date: 2017-08-11 12:43 am (UTC)
gracheeha: (Default)
From: [personal profile] gracheeha
Гугл, он - большой. Мой сын работал в Гугл и ничего подобного я от него не слышала.

Date: 2017-08-11 01:43 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] yussouf
я написал: у меня в основном опыт другой
хотя частично есть и такой, но с другими нюансами

хотя в тамошней "социальной иерархии" - по крайней мере, как ее Влад описывает - статус у меня был ниже некуда: контрактор же ж, ггг

Date: 2017-08-11 01:53 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] yussouf
а вообще смотрите дело как и в чем
в моем разумении, конечно

в Империи Д. вообще-то мало какие процессы и отношения регламентированы подробно

к примеру, с точки зрения софтвер лайфсайкл - обязательны только код ревью
туда правда много метрик напаковано - но тем не менее

что же касается человеческих отношений - так тут еще меньше
фактически, определены только no-nos
а, ну - OKR да peer reviews еще, да и то... в этом можно участвовать крайне минимально, фактически


и вот по этим причинам все начинает сильно-сильно зависеть от команды
и, соответственно - непосредственного менеджера
ну и его менеджера, и в какой-то степени - до ближайшего director of engineering


так что, если я правильно понял в чем ваша "корысть" 8-) - вытяньте из них всю информацию, что можно
интервьюируйте их серьезней чем они вас, шоб семь потов сошло
поговорите с тим мемберами
ну и т.д.

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Date: 2017-08-11 12:39 am (UTC)
gracheeha: (Default)
From: [personal profile] gracheeha
>> A normal female will hardly start shouting at a meeting, interrupting other people, pushing her opinion, however stupid, on others

Я густо покраснела, но на старости лет меня уже не изменить... Да и окружающие уже привыкли. :)

Date: 2017-08-11 03:17 am (UTC)
garote: (Default)
From: [personal profile] garote
I think it's true that there is a certain kind of hyper-aggressive egotistical jackass that can infest a
corporate structure, and is poisonous to team cohesion and good decision-making among software developers.

I also think it's true that these people are almost always men. Usually young men. They're incredibly bad listeners, tend to monopolize meeting time with their own irrelevant opinions, do not follow orders very well, are easily threatened, and tend to see themselves as deserving a role in management, or the ear of the managers, without needing to earn it. They truly believe in their own vast superiority on all fronts and will happily complain to anyone who will listen about how little respect and trust they're getting and how totally unfair that is.

They tend to jump around whatever company they join, alienating a constant stream of people with bluster and leaving a trail of half-finished projects that look way better on paper than they ever perform in the real world, until they've clawed their way up into a management position, and from there they focus mostly on eliminating threats.

They make uniquely shitty managers, and it doesn't surprise me that Google is stuffed with them, after spending nearly 20 years - an entire generation - gobbling down ad revenue money and shitting out an endless parade of half-assed pet projects and me-too products, with the occasional incredibly useful service - like maps or translate - emerging in spite of themselves.

But hey, I'm surely biased.

Date: 2017-08-11 05:24 pm (UTC)
ira_k: (Default)
From: [personal profile] ira_k
thank you.

Date: 2017-08-11 06:54 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] darypola
The guy probably didn't word his statement carefully enough. In interviews he keeps stressing that he said that 'women on average' rather than 'all women' have non tech interests. It's hard to disagree that people should like what they are doing in order to make a good career. You can't force people into tech if they hate it. Having disinterested and barely qualified coworkers is not that cool.

Date: 2017-08-11 05:27 pm (UTC)
ira_k: (Default)
From: [personal profile] ira_k
"women on average" is a meaningless statement. he is trying to use it now as an excuse... which makes his entire memo even more idiotic.

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Date: 2017-08-11 07:44 am (UTC)
olindom: (Default)
From: [personal profile] olindom
Все зависит от человека. Надо знать себя. Я отметаю для себя все места работы, где мне будет некомфортно. Это и банк и госучреждения.

Date: 2017-08-11 08:11 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] sassa_nf
I am not sure what you are referring to. The "manifesto" of sort that I've seen isn't so much about some people being "better" than the others, but rather about the dangers of adopting the position that all men are equal - in the sense that all people are the same - and the dangers of swinging into the extreme opposite of prejudice, which is the political correctness.

Date: 2017-08-11 11:31 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] ivr_blackbird
точно, точно.
я то манифест читать поленился из-за объема, но не удержался почитать людей в теме. к моему удивлению, сочинение инженера они оценили на А- at lest.
http://quillette.com/2017/08/07/google-memo-four-scientists-respond/
пожалуй нужно найти время. Фото перца с майкой Goolag и плакатом "пострадал за правду" зачетное )

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Date: 2017-08-11 11:21 am (UTC)
notabler: (Default)
From: [personal profile] notabler
Мне кажется, в области старомодной механической инженерии положение "мужчины в среднем лучше" было истинным. Я пыталась проверять, когда работала. Дух соревнования с мужчинами был силен, так что однажды, когда вздумали ввести планы на начерченные форматки, изо всей силы стала пахать, чтобы "догнать и перегнать". Отдел у нас был "нестандартного оборудования", т.е. проектировал всякое для всех цехов и подразделений - от подставки в туалете, до испытательной камеры для приборов. Итог: я всегда была второй, 300 форматок в месяц был мой потолок (цифры дают деталировочные чертежи), но обогнать чемпиона Сашку, тихого, непьющего, солидного такого мужичка, не удавалось никогда. Тот делал до 600. Остальные тетки мне в подметки не годились, но они и жилы не рвали. Глупо даже предполагать, что моя "серебряная медаль" повлекла за собой какое-то увеличение зарплаты. Как было 120 рублей, так и осталось до конца карьеры (5 лет там работала), у любого мужчины, даже пьющего, прогульщика и лентяя, было хоть чуток, но больше.

Date: 2017-08-11 01:55 pm (UTC)
12_natali: 12-natali (Default)
From: [personal profile] 12_natali
постеснялись написать по русски, чтобы не получить втык от....инженерш?:))

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